[Guderian]

Сообщение от dizel153624

Канадский Leopard-2A4M. 6-е фото- впереди канадский 2А4М- ствол 44кал, за ним- немецкий 2А6М- ствол 55кал. Последнее фото- канадский 2А6М в Афганистане (Militarfahrzeuge 2011)

Кстати, Porsche детально разрабатывал для Leopard-2 ходовую часть и отвечал за общие вопросы пректирования всей конструкции.

[GOOGLE]

[Langeo]

Сообщение от Guderian

Кстати, Porsche детально разрабатывал для Leopard-2 ходовую часть и отвечал за общие вопросы пректирования всей конструкции.

А на производстве по прежнему обитатели концлагерей трудятся?

[dizel153624]

Сообщение от Langeo

А на производстве по прежнему обитатели концлагерей трудятся?

Это типа юмор?

[Langeo]

Для кого може и юмор.

Заручившись поддержкой фюрера, Фердинанд Порше и его деловой партнер, Альберт Шпеер (Albert Speer) начали строить новую автомобильную фабрику. Располагаться фабрика должна была в Фаллерсл***** (Fallersleben) – городке в 30 милях к северо-востоку от Брауншвейга (Braunschweig). Ввиду активно шедших военных действий о гражданской направленности проекта было решено забыть – производство должно было быть ориентированным в первую очередь на армейские нужды. В 1942-м Шпеер и Порше задумали использовать на своей фабрике заключенных концентрационных лагерей; предполагалось, что это поможет наладить более дешевое и крупномасштабное производство. Разумеется, любые пленники для работ на автомобильном заводе не подходили – предполагалось, что из общей массы будут тщательно отбирать наиболее выносливых и умелых.
Лагерь Арбайтсдорф был открыт 8 апреля 1942-го; изначально в нем находилось 800 заключенных, привезенных из лагеря Нойенгамме (Neuengamme). Руководил обоими лагерями один и тот же человек – Мартин Вайс (Martin Weiss). 26 апреля 1942-го в лагерь прибыла партия заключенных из Заксенхаузена (Sachsenhausen), 23 июня – группа пленников Бухенвальда (Buchenwald).
В середине июля 1942-го в лагере сменилось начальство – руководителем Арбайтсдорфа стал бывший сотрудник Нойенгамме Вильгельм Шитли (Wilhelm Schitli).

[Guderian]

Bosch, Siemens, Krupp, MB, BMW, VW, Skoda, Zeiss, Novartis, Nestle, Boss - список предприятий на вскидку, где использовался труд пленных.

Что будем с этим делать?

Предлагаю игнорировать продукцию этих компаний: бытовую технику выбросить, машины сдать в утиль, таблетки не принимать, еду не есть!

[Langeo]

Сообщение от Guderian

Bosch, Siemens, Krupp, MB, BMW, VW, Skoda, Zeiss, Novartis, Nestle, Boss - список предприятий на вскидку, где использовался труд пленных.

Что будем с этим делать?

Предлагаю игнорировать продукцию этих компаний: бытовую технику выбросить, машины сдать в утиль, таблетки не принимать, еду не есть!

Периодически напоминать потомка, льющим слюни на блестяшки, на чьих костях построено это великолепие.

[Guderian]

Сообщение от Langeo

Периодически напоминать потомка, льющим слюни на блестяшки, на чьих костях построено это великолепие.

Так я не понял, самим то пользоваться можно или повыбрасывать все?

Как можно пользоваться тем, что было выпущено на предприятиях, которые эксплуатировали и мучали наших дедов?

Я предлагаю взять камни и пойти по автосалонам, для начала...

Они должны за все заплатить!

Добавлено через 10 минут

Сообщение от Langeo

Заручившись поддержкой фюрера, Фердинанд Порше и его деловой партнер, Альберт Шпеер (Albert Speer) начали строить новую автомобильную фабрику.

Порше и Шпеер никогда и нигде не были деловыми партнерами.

А вообще лучше использовать официальные источники

http://www.kz-gedenkstaette-neuengamme.de/

Bodo Lafferentz – die Hauptgeschäftsführer der Volkswagenwerk GmbH – mit Heinrich Himmler eine Vereinbarung getroffen, nach der eine Leichtmetallgießerei von KZ-Häftlingen aufgebaut werden sollte.

Также рекомендую ознакомиться с официальной версией, в которой рассказывается за что и как обвиняли Ф. Порше после войны. Я опубликую ее без перевода, поскольку плохо перевожу с литератоурного английского на русский литературный.

Это из официальной биографии Порше

"...The first incident occurred in the summer of 1945 when a German informer, who, as Ferry wrote, had “insinuated his way into favor with the British,” became chief of police in Wolfsburg. Seeking to strengthen his political position, he accused Ferdinand Porsche of murder after two bodies were found in the house that Porsche had used when visiting the KdF factory. The trumped-up charges were unsubstantiated since no one from the Porsche family had been anywhere hear Wolfsburg for several months. However, the police chief the persisted and convinced the chief of the American military police in Zell am See that the Porsches were murderers. Ferry considered the whole affair preposterous until a until of American MPs arrived and arrested every male member of the Porsches family except Ferdinand Porsche, who was a Gmund visiting Karl Rabe. Erwin Komenda and most of the factory workers living on the estate grounds, thirty-two people in all, were also taken into custody and carted off to prison in Salzburg.
Unbeknownst to any of the family members in Zell am See, Ferdinand Porsche was also taken into custody and was under house arrest at Gmund until early August. He was then driven in his own car to Schloss Kransberg, a castle near Bad Nauheim that had been turned into an internment camp by the occupation forces. There, Porsche was kept along with senior members of the German ministry, including Albert Speer, Hitler’s minister for armaments and war production. Everyone held at Schloss Kransberg was under suspicion of war crimes, and it was here that the Allies would ascertain who would be sent to trial at the Nuremberg Count. Those sent to trial, including German Field Marshal Hermann Goring and ten other Nazi Party leaders, were sentenced to death in 1946.
Knowing that Porsche had not been involved in any political activity during the war, Speer strenuously defended him before the military tribunal. As a result, Porsche was cleared of any suspicion of complicity in war crimes and given am official document stating that no charges were to be brought against him. When he returned to Austria, shortly after his seventieth birthday, he discovered that his son and all his associates were in prison, accused of a crime they not only had not committed but of which they had no knowledge. Ferry and the others had been interned for thirteen weeks, and not once had any of them been questioned about the incident in Wolfsburg.
Recalled Ferry, “My father eventually succeeded in convincing the British of our innocence, and he secured our release from the American military government in Vienna.” It was November 1, 1945, and when Ferry arrived back in Zell am See, he believed that the worst was over. “We were to be proved hopelessly wrong,” he said.
Sentiments toward Germany were hard-hearted, much worse than they had been after the Great War. The Morgenthau Plan, named after Henry Morgenthau, Jr., Franklin D. Roosevelt’s Secretary of the Treasure (1934-1945) and the son of a wealthy U.S. financier and statesman who was born in Germany, was a harsh peace settlement that called for the total dismantling of German industry, the closure of mines, and the conversion of highly industrialized nation into am agrarian state. Allied bombing attacks beginning in 1943 had almost assured the first decree; nevertheless, by the end of summer 1945, the Allied occupation forces were allowing the German automotive industry to begin the slow process of cleaning up and rebuilding. This was about the time a young French lieutenant named Henri LeComte arrived at the Porsche estate in Austria.
“Lieutenant LeComte had first gone our Zuffenhausen factory and discovered that we were living in Austria. LeComte claimed to be working on behalf of Marcel Paul, the French minister for industry,” wrote Ferry. “Paul was a member of the French Communist Party. He wanted to obtain the Volkswagen factory as part of Germany’s reparations payment to France. Of course of agreement of the American and, more important, the British, in whose zone the factory was, had to be obtained.” What the French needed even more was Ferdinand Porsche's help, or so it first appeared when LeComte came knocking on Porsche's door. At his bequest, in mid-November Anton Piech and the Porsches, along with their cousin Herbert Kaes, drove to Baden-Baden, which was now in the French-occupied zone of West Germany. There they met at the Hotel Muller with government representatives who told them that France was planning to build a state-owned automobile factory which would include half of the manufacturing equipment from the VW plant of Wolfsburg as reparations payments. The Porsches were needed to supervise the removal and relocation of the Volkswagen tooling and to oversee construction of the new manufacturing facility in France. The French by LeComte's superiors, Major Trevoux and Major Maiffre, had gone so far as to draft a contact in advance for Ferdinand Porsche to sign. Trevoux requested that he do so before leaving. Although the plan appeared to have some merit and had obviously piqued Porsche's curiosity, he told Trevoux that he needed to think it over before agreeing to the proposal.
Back in Zell am See, Ferry expressed serious doubts regarding Marcel Paul's plan and the sincerity of the French to build a German car, but his father had become enthusiastic about the project in the weeks that followed. He told Ferry, “It look as if the French are pretty serious about this business.” Early in December the Porsches, Piech, and Kaes once again made the drive to Baden-Baden to resume discussions with Trevoux. They had no idea that the political situation had changed between November and December and that they were now walking into trap.
The French accommodated the Porsches in the Villa Bella Vista, and a meeting was arranged again at the Hotel Muller. When they arrived, however, Trevoux was not were. In his place was a Colonel Lamis, who barely showed any interest in the discussions and asked seemingly irrelevant questions of Ferdinand Porsche. The meeting concluded rather abruptly, and the Porsches were sent back to their rooms. “My father gradually became more and more impatient,” recalled Ferry, “and decided to go back to Zell am See the next day. That same evening Maiffre and LeComte were dining with us when two Frenchmen in civilian clothes suddenly appeared and told us that we were under arrest. LeComte acted surprised and said, “The whole thing is a misunderstanding, believe me! Please remain calm and don't get excited. We'll have the matter cleared up by Monday!” Monday would be too late. The order had come from the French minister of justice, Pierre-Henri Teitgen, and on Sunday, December 16, 1945 Ferdinand and Ferry Porsche and Fr. Anton Piech were taken to the prison in Baden-Baden. Kaes, who had decided to skip the dinner on Friday and go to the cinema instead, managed to escape arrest. Staying at the house of relative, he remained nearby to observe the events as they unfolded.
The Porsches were imprisoned now for the second time in as many month. Knowing of the document clearing his father of any war crimes, Ferry was at a loss to understand their unprovoked arrest. His answer came the next day when a series of charges were leveled at his father and brother-at-law, this time for misconduct with respect to prisoners of war and workers at the Peugeot plants that had come under the control of VW during Germany's occupation of France. The rationale was that Ferdinand Porsche and Anton Piech had been in charge of the KdF Werk during the war, thus they were responsible for the acts of the Gestapo who had brutalized French workers. The accusations were as thin as the paper on which they were written. The Porsche and Piech had merely become pawns in a battle between two factions, and their arrest was part of a politically motivated conspiracy by French automakers and those in the French cabinet to sabotage Marcel Paul's plan of building VWs in France. Ferry's early apprehensions about the sincerity of the French had been correct. “They had hoped to achieve their aim by taking us out of circulation,” he said. And it had worked. The accusations, false or otherwise, were far more serious than they first appeared.
The charges against his father, as Ferry later recounted, were based on half-truths and the mistaken beliefs about events that occurred at the Peugeot factory in Montbeliard.”My father was accused of being a war criminal on the grounds that, after a few incidents of sabotage at Peugeot factories, some French people had been arrested by the Gestapo at my father's instigation. There was alleged to be evidence that a few Peugeot managers had been thrown into prison during the German occupation. This was all contained in charges brought against my father, which we would have dismissed as ridiculous if the situation had not been so serious. In reality, my father had intervened on behalf of the Peugeot managers and had complained bitterly to the Gestapo that cooperation would be impossible if the Peugeot management was locked up in jail. The managers were subsequently released. However, when shortly afterward there were further acts of sabotage at Peugeot, several managers were thrown back into prison. My father intervened again, but this time the strength of available evidence meant his efforts were in vain. One of the managers died during his imprisonment.”
Similar accusations were made against Anton Piech and Ferry. It was soon proven that Ferry had never been associated with the management of the KdF Werk or Volkswagen, and he was released from Baden-Baden prison in March 1946. However, he was still detained by the French and not permitted to return to Austria until July. Ferdinand Porsche and Anton Piech were also released from prison but were likewise detained as “guests” of the French.
Despite protests from within French cabinet, Marcel Paul continued to lobby for the production of Volkswagen in France, and thus the struggle raged on into 1946. In May both Porsche and Piech were driven to Paris where they were accommodated in the servant's quarters of the Renault villa. They were later met by a team of Renault engineers and asked to review drawings for the new 4CV model and assist Renault in setting up the production line. Porsche and Piech cooperated fully and even worked in the Renault assembly shop on preparation for the production of the 4CV, but after more then year and repeated pleas for their release, in Febrary 1947 they were jailed again. Events had suddenly gone from bad to worse.
Marcel Paul had lost his seat in the French cabinet, thus ending the debate over producing the VW in France, and Minister of Justice Teitgen, who signet the original arrest warrant, had become even more powerful within the cabinet. Perhaps as a result, Porsche and Piech were transferred to the prison in Dijon, one of the worst in France. The cells were unheated even in the middle of winter, and at age seventy-two the elder Porsche's health soon began to fail. A physician declared him too ill to remain incarcerated, and Porsche was transferred to the prison hospital where he slowly regained some strength but remained in despair over his situation.
Several month later Porsche was interrogated once again by French authorities, only this time there were two Peugeot managers present, both of whom spoke on Porsche's behalf and confirmed that he had nothing to do with the mistreatment of French workers. A former Gestapo officer had also been questioned, and he, too, confirmed that Porsche had absolutely no involvement with French prisoners being sent to Germany as forced labor at the KdF. Ferdinand Porsche's long winter appeared to be coming to an end. With these new revelations the French finally agreed to free both Professor Porsche and Dr. Piech, but first a bail of one million francs was to be posted. It was an impossible sum of money for the Porsche family to obtain..
Throughout the ordeal in France, Karl Rabe and Louise Porsche-Piech had kept things going at Gmund by supervising the repair of prewar VWs and VW bucket cars. Toward the end of 1946 there were more than two hundred employees working at the Gmund facility, which Ferry and Louise had wisely reorganized as an Austrian company under the name Porsche Konstruktionen GesmbH. It was still tough going, but in September 1946 fate at last turned in Porsche’s favor when Italian industrialist and amateur race driver Piero Dusio entered their lives.
Dusio had made his fortune selling war materiel to the Italian government. Even being on the losing side had been profitable for him, and in 1946 he bankrolled the development of an entire class of single-seat race cars known as Cisitalia, the contraction for Consorzio Industriale Sportivo Italia. He hired a talented Fiat engineer named Dante Giacosa, who designed a simple, Fiat-based race car that could be produced profitably in reasonable numbers. Dusio also employed former Fiat experimental engineer Dr. Giovanni Savonuzzi to put the car into production and also the great Piero Taruffi to road test the first sample. By August 1946, Cisitalia had produced seven of the new Type D46 Monopostos, and in their debut race a trio od Cisitalias finished first through third.
Among Dusio’s cadre of racing luminaries was the legendary Tazio Nuvolari. As fate would have it, Nuvolari had driven for the Auto Union before the war and was familiar with Professor Porsche and the magnificent cars he had designed. When he decided to resume his Grand Prix racing career, both Nuvolari and Dusio found their way to Porsche’s doorstep through mutual friends: Carlo Abarth, who was married to Anton Piech’s former secretary, and Rudolf Hruska, who had worked with Porsche in 1939. It was only after making contact with Louise Piech and Ferry Porsche, however, that Dusio discovered the plight of their father and offered to provide the necessary funds to secure his release. He had one million francs delivered to the French authorities through his friends, celebrated race drivers Louis Chiron and Raymond Sommer. On August 1, 1947, Ferdinand Porsche and Anton Piech were released after almost two years in and out of French prisons. The money used to buy their freedom was the payment for designing the Grand Prix car for Dusio, but he was generous and contracted additionally for Porsche to design a small farm tractor, a sport car, and a water turbine. Of the three, only the tractor was produced..."

[Langeo]

Сообщение от Guderian

Это из официальной биографии Порше

Ни шиша не интересно. В официальных биографиях у них все белые и пушистые, даже начальник генштаба вообще ни при делах оказывается.

К тому же Шпеер 20 лет отсидел за использование труда заключенных концлагерей, а Порше попал в американскую зону оккупации и заслал кому надо, а потом продолжил ваять свои изделия на новых хозяев.

[Guderian]

Сообщение от Langeo

Ни шиша не интересно. В официальных биографиях у них все белые и пушистые, даже начальник генштаба вообще ни при делах оказывается..

Вы утрируете. Вместо того, чтобы вникнуть, вы отрицаете. Как вам можно о чем-то рассказать, если вы изначально, внутри себя, отторгаете информацию.

Сообщение от Langeo

Если вам действительно интересно знать, каких промышленников и в чем обвиняли после войны, вам нужно ознакомиться с материалами Нюрнбергского процесса. Там этот вопрос раскрыт полностью..

Главное, что необходимо помнить, что Порше конструктором, а не менеджером. Констуктор занимается своими прямыми обязанностями. Да, он может дать оценку трудозатрат производства, в том числе и в человекочасах, но он не занимается набором персонала. Это нужно понимать в первую очередь!

Сообщение от Langeo

К тому же Шпеер 20 лет отсидел за использование труда заключенных концлагерей,.

Причем тут Порше?

Сообщение от Langeo

а Порше попал в американскую зону оккупации и заслал кому надо, а потом продолжил ваять свои изделия на новых хозяев.

Вместо того, чтобы писать эту белеберду рекомендую изучить, все-таки, это вопрос не по непонятным источникам, а по официальным.

Сообщение от Langeo

даже начальник генштаба вообще ни при делах оказывается..

Я не знаю, кого вы имеете в виду, но Кейтель и Йодль были казнены.

А вот Ялмар Шахт был отпущен на свободу, хотя был главным финансистом Рейха и оперировал займами из Англии и США, в целях укрепления и усиления нацистского режима.

[Langeo]

Сообщение от Guderian

Главное, что необходимо помнить, что Порше конструктором, а не менеджером. Констуктор занимается своими прямыми обязанностями. Да, он может дать оценку трудозатрат производства, в том числе и в человекочасах, но он не занимается набором персонала. Это нужно понимать в первую очередь!

Причем тут Порше?

Вместе творили вместе и сидеть должны были. К тому же Порше не просто конструктор, а еще и владелец фирмы. Сидел он вплоть до освобождения Австрии советскими войсками, как только наша армия оттуда ушла его тут же выпустили, так шо если бы не добрая воля товарища Сталина, мотал бы свой срок Порше и дальше.

Я не знаю, кого вы имеете в виду, но Кейтель и Йодль были казнены.

Однако Кейтель успел книжонку тиснуть, де он ну прямо таки агнец божий на службу у кровавого тирана.

А вот Ялмар Шахт был отпущен на свободу, хотя был главным финансистом Рейха и оперировал займами из Англии и США, в целях укрепления и усиления нацистского режима.

Собсна, об чем и речь.